Exclusive Interview with Chancellor Melissa Aviles-Ramos
In this special back-to-school episode of P.S. Weekly, New York City schools Chancellor Melissa Aviles-Ramos shared her thoughts on pressing education issues including the cellphone ban, restorative justice, mental health support for students, and whether she’d encourage her middle school daughter to take the Specialized High School Admissions Test, or SHSAT.
Student journalists Roberto Bailey, Aponi Kafele, and Autumn Wynn also pressed the chancellor on her commitment to the city’s Journalism for All initiative and what students can do if they don’t feel their schools are sufficiently academically rigorous.
Videography: Christian Williams Fernandez and Kevin Jones
Editing: Taylor McGraw
Cover photo: Dulce M. Marquez
Special thanks: Alex Zimmerman
Recorded on August 12, 2025
P.S. Weekly is available on major podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Reach us at PSWeekly@chalkbeat.org.
P.S. Weekly is a collaboration between Chalkbeat and The Bell, made possible by generous support from The Pinkerton Foundation.
Transcript
Roberto Bailey
All right, so I'm Roberto, and we just want to first thank you for sitting down with P.S. Weekly. We know who you are, but could you please start by introducing yourself for our listeners?
Chancellor Melissa Aviles-Ramos
Of course, my name is Melissa Aviles-Ramos, and I am the Chancellor of New York City Public Schools, the largest school district in the country, and in my opinion, the greatest.
Roberto
All right. And before we get into the more meaty questions, we just have a few short icebreakers. So to start, what's something that people don't know about you?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
I don't think too many people know, even though I've talked about it, that I went to Catholic school my entire life, so people find it a little ironic that I run a public school system, but I don't like the fact that, like my mom had to make these sacrifices because there wasn't a good public school in our neighborhood growing up in the 80s and 90s. So I decided, you know, I'm going to dedicate my career to public education.
Roberto
All right, and what's on your summer reading list?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
My summer reading list, oh, boy, I have been doing a lot of leadership books, so reading a lot about how you can move teams and inspire them and build morale. So I have about five or six different texts going on, and I have a spreadsheet. I'm kind of a book nerd, so I create like a Google Form where I put notes and quotes and then I pull it into a spreadsheet to kind of look at my themes. It's a lot, but that's how I keep track of reading five or six different books at the same time.
Roberto
Got it. Got it. We'll do one more. Who was your favorite teacher?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
My favorite teacher was my English teacher. Her name was Natalie Ryder. I met her in the seventh grade. She was young, she was dynamic, she was a woman of color, and she just broke the mold. I had, like, really boring old teachers, and all of a sudden I had this really cool person who told me I was a reader and a writer. I said I wanted to grow up to be a writer, and she says, “You already are,” and that just changed everything for me.
Roberto
All right, okay, so we're approaching your first first day of school as Chancellor. What do you want to say to students as we get ready for a new school year?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
I want to say to students that I am extraordinarily proud of the work that they did, as evidenced by our test scores. So I think our children showed up in a big way. They worked so hard, and the evidence pays off. And I also want them to know that while I'm super proud of their performance on these exams, an exam doesn't define you, right? You are defined by so many other things, your talents, your convictions, your hobbies, there's so many things that contribute to an identity. So while I'm proud of you, I don't want you to think that we define you by a test. I also want you to know that we are working extremely hard with your teachers and your principals and your superintendents to make sure you have a super smooth school year, and that I pride myself on being accessible to teachers and students, so that where there are issues, we can get to them as soon as possible and make sure that you are having the best experience possible.
Roberto
All right. And could you talk a little bit more about the kind of test score aspect, like, what improvements have we seen?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
Absolutely. So we just found out that we went up 7.2 percentage points on the ELA exam across the district, and we also went up by 3.5 percentage points in the math test, and these are the 3-8 scores. So not high school, not high school Regents exams. But this was a really big deal, because if you look back all the way to 2012, obviously, pre-pandemic, our proficiency rates have been really, really low, especially since the test changed. You know, back when we had common core and it changed to Common Core, and it's changed again, but the scores have been consistently low, and we talk a lot about learning loss and what covid did for students and their academic proficiency. And I think that what New York City students showed this year in the test is that with the right instruction and with the right support from teachers, there's nothing that New York City students can't accomplish. You know, this was a really big jump. We still have a lot of work to do. Some of the numbers are still very much not where we want to be, but the fact that our students made such huge jumps tells us that they shouldn't be underestimated.
Roberto
All right, and we'll talk about the kind of cell phone ban in just a second. But how else will the school look or feel different this year? Any new initiatives?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
Yeah, so I'm super proud of our Family Connectors Program. And if you haven't heard about it, it is where we have parent volunteers who are trained on all the resources that exist across New York City. So if a family is facing housing insecurity or food insecurity or even domestic violence. And temporary housing, just things that plague our families. We are training these family connectors on how to access these resources across the city. So the reason why I bring this up to answer your question is because we know when families feel welcome into schools and they feel supported, children benefit from it. So I think this year you're going to see a lot more parent participation, a lot more empowerment for our families, and a lot more student empowerment.
Roberto
All right, so we're going to dive into a few topics now that have kind of been on the top of our minds and our peers’ minds. I'm going to pass it to Aponi for our first topic.
Aponi Kafele
Hi, my name is Aponi Kafele. I'm a, well, now I'm going to be a senior in high school, and I wanted to ask you about the upcoming cell phone ban. Obviously, we're coming into our next year, and there's a lot of questions on the student ends around, like, what is this going to look like in our schools? I think some of my friends, like, my school is really generous enough to send us a survey of like, how do you want it to show up in our school? And my friends are talking about, what is this going to look like getting in and out of the building? What is this going to look like, as far as like any student pushback when we start introducing this cell phone ban? So what would you say to students who maybe feel anxious about what this might look like in their school?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
I would say I totally understand. My own daughter is a New York City public school student. She's a middle schooler and she's a middle schooler, and when she heard me do an interview the other day, she's like, this is real? It's really happening? How could you guys take our phones? And I said, You're gonna be fine. So what I would tell New York City students is that we need to make sure that the adults are very much paying attention to you and that you feel supported in this process, right there is a little bit of a detox that's going to happen because you, we, not only you, but we are all attached to our phones. You see mine right here. I don't want to be hypocritical about that, but we want to create distraction free zones for you, where you can center innovation, creative thinking, and, yes, use technology, but in a way that is going to really foster education and critical thinking. That being said, I was a principal, and I collected cell phones, and I know sometimes that the logistics can be kind of crazy. So we sent out a survey to our principals, and we really focused on the principals for whom this is new, to make sure that they are ready picking one of the three preferred methods, which is, you know, self storage locker, one of the pouches or collection, depending on the size of the school and that they're connecting with the families and with their school leadership teams to design a policy that's in compliance with the law and with our Chancellor's regulation, but one that suits the community's needs. So I think what we also should do is establish an escalation process so that way families and students can also say, Hey, I know that this is a law, but it doesn't kind of feel right in my school. So that way we're hearing directly from you all as we roll out this process. But more than half of our schools already do this, so we're really focusing on the other half for whom this is new.
Aponi
Yeah, I want to speak more on the escalation process as far as you're saying. How can students, like, even though, sitting at home, once we go into the school year, what is like a website or someone they should reach out to? They're like, Hey, I think the situation at my school is evolving. Who can I reach out to?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
Yeah, that's a really great question. So right now we're working behind the scenes to figure out what that communication method is going to look like, and then we will very much advertise it, so that way you are all aware of it and get that information out to you.
Aponi
Excellent. Okay, I think that's all we have on the cell phone ban. It actually fits really neatly into student voice, though. I think a lot of students, even such as myself, as I've kind of like gone through the four years, you just discover there are new ways that you can contribute to your school, but you tend to realize it later on. How can students who maybe don't feel like they're being heard in the school system, what are resources they can go to, or what are places they can go to, kind of contribute more into their community?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
That is such a great question. And I think there are a couple things. One is we need to make sure that our schools have a really solid communication plan, both a family and student communication plan that's really advertising the opportunities at the school level, at the district level and at the central level. And what are the criteria to be involved in some of those programs, right? So we're going to do a better job of that. I'm making notes, as you're saying these things, because I have a principal and superintendent advisory council as well as a student advisory council. And these are all things that I want to talk to them about, on how we can strengthen them logistically. The other thing is really making sure that — so one of the things I do is, when I go on school visits, I actually collect student information and invite them to come back to meetings with me here at Central. And one of the things that's resonating with me is kind of like having a borough point person at the superintendent's team. We have this. We do have this, but I think that in the past, we've kind of let the superintendents just do it on their own, and we haven't really enforced it centrally, so I want to bring that back and make sure that we're talking to the superintendents about having that point person on the team who's fostering student voice, and then talking really closely with us at Central on how we can further support them.
Aponi
Is there a school you've seen that kind of has that communication set up in a way that you think is like exemplary?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
Yeah. So there are a couple of schools. One that stands out for me is on the Roosevelt campus and the Bronx Michael Barakat High School for law and community service. Really outstanding student voice opportunities. And there's so many of them, but that one, that one stands out to me the most. So I think we need to collect best practices and really share them with other principals and superintendents so they can see that this work is possible. But when I was a principal, everybody would always share, like, the bright and shiny end result. And I used to say, Well, how do you get to this? Like, I'm a first year principal, I don't know what I'm doing. And so we also are like highlighting the journey like what it takes to lay that kind of foundation so you can get to that point.
Aponi
I think that's all for me. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Autumn Wynn
So we're gonna move into our next topic, student journalism. This year, the initiative Journalism for All, will be introducing a journalism elective in 30 schools across the city. And obviously we're student journalists talking to you today, and there's how many 20 more of us back at Broadway. But do you believe that every school should have a journalism program or elective in their school?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
I absolutely do, and we have more coming on the student journalism front that I'll be happy to talk to you about in the near future, but it's very important that we foster student journalism across every single school. Fun fact, I was a student journalist, and I used to drive my teachers crazy and run around. I thought I was going to be a journalist, and I realized I didn't like cameras — the irony of what I do for a living. But that's when I said maybe I'll just be an English teacher instead. That sounds better. And I remember that experience teaching me how to ask the right questions, how to research, the difference between questioning authority versus being seen as someone disrespectful or insubordinate right like young people have a right to question the world they live in and the systems and structures that are guiding them, and if we foster that in a very positive way, then we are going to have critical thinkers Who are really engaging with their communities and building those leadership schools skills.
Autumn
Since it sounds like you're really for it and you were yourself, so then, how do you plan to support the Journalism for All school schools and student journalism in New York City?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
Yeah, so these are things that now we are paying attention to centrally, I think in the past, at least when I was a principal and a superintendent, a lot of people were doing different things, and we didn't really have, like, standardized expectations or a central initiative that supported the schools with resources and training. So that's why it's so important that we do things like Journalism for All. Because you're in a school, if you're only talking to yourself and to your peers, it's not helpful if you're not thinking through these logistics and other pieces with other school leaders and other teachers and other students. So creating that community of like minded folks who can learn from each other and get special training and get that support is really important when we think about expanding these programs across schools.
Autumn
So you're saying you plan to expand these kinds of programs across all New York City schools?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
I'm saying that that would be ideal, and that we're looking at the ways that we can offer support so we can figure out what expansion looks like very successfully. I think when you just expand without having a model of success, then you might just get more chaos and not necessarily more of a good thing. So we like to pay attention to what we're doing. Is it going well? How can we support it? And then, okay, now we're ready for expansion, which is kind of what we do in New York City. Reads, right? We started with a smaller group of schools, had the other schools pay attention to what was going on, worked through some of the hiccups, and said, Okay, now we're ready to expand.
Autumn
So you also said in the near future. So with having a model, it seems like New York City schools should hopefully expect to have a model or something out for regular journalism programs soon?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
Yes, absolutely. And part of that is also working with schools to make sure that there are identified adults in the school building who can help run these programs, and that they are trained. Just because you are an English teacher or social studies teacher doesn't mean that you are a journalist and that you can run a journalism program. So we want to make sure that whatever adult is willing to do this, that they are trained, that they are a source of information, and that they're really someone who can lead this charge in a school.
Autumn
Yeah. Also, would you be willing to give students like us, like the opportunity that we have today, to give regular press releases to student journalists?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
All the time, and honestly, I think we need to do a better job of showing some of those clips, because there are plenty of times when I go to a school and I'm interviewed by students, and so we want to make sure that your work is being shared broadly. But I love working with student journalists. I happen to think that student journalists ask amazing questions. Obviously they're super relevant because you're living the experience and the moment. And, you know, I want to make friends with you before you're working for The New York Times or Chalkbeat so that way we have a good relationship, right? Like, why wouldn't I want to do that?
Autumn
Let's a bit transition. This still has to do with student voice, though. There's been a lot of critics and a lot of controversy around restorative justice in schools. Now there has been a vote upheld to the city council, and I believe you too about banning it in every school. What are your thoughts on restorative justice?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
My thoughts are that restorative justice is extremely vital to New York City public schools, and there was a time where suspension was the only course of action. And what we know is that when students are only suspended and there is not an entry for them to come back into a welcoming environment, we know that we just see a lot of repeat offenders, right? People are going to continue to do the same things because they don't feel supported. And so I always say, if we don't have the restorative justice piece in place, we are simply going to over, suspend and treat the symptom, and not the root cause of the issue. And so I completely support restorative justice, and as a matter of fact, I have been meeting with the team so we can actually amp up their work and make sure that every single borough has a really strong restorative justice support system, because it looks different in every single borough, every single school. But we need to make sure that the team has everything it needs to support superintendents and principals so it is not going anywhere while I'm Chancellor.
Autumn
So you're committed to keeping and expanding restorative I sure am. Alrighty. So then, how are you making sure and working with schools to make sure that restorative justice isn't being abused or misused in any kind of way?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
Such a great question. So first of all, it's defining restorative justice, right? I think that many people think about restorative justice, and they think it's just the restorative circles. There's so many other things that go into a restorative justice plan. For example, if a student is suspended, because unfortunately, there are some, there are some acts that warrant a suspension according to the discipline code, but we want to make sure that schools have what we call a re entry plan, and that when students come back in, there is an opportunity to let that student know your mistake doesn't define you and what caused you to commit this act. What's going on? How can we pair you with mental health support, with peer to peer support, some sort of extracurricular activity plan that's going to make you feel more part of this community, so you won't harm the community, because you when you feel a part of it, you don't want to harm the community that you're so closely attached to, right? So I think defining it across the system is very, very important. The other thing is making sure that our principals and superintendents are truly invested in restorative practices. So sometimes that's a mindset shift, and making sure people understand that the tough discipline that some of us grew up with, we need to turn over a new leaf, and we need to talk about, again, the root causes, and not just punishing students without asking why something is happening. So a lot of that training is also something that we need to do, and then looking at the places across the districts where it's not happening. What are suspension rates looking like? Which student groups are being suspended more than others. What are some of the incidents and the infractions that are causing this, that are raising the school's suspension rates? Those are things that we need to do, that deep dive and then working on a school-specific plan.
Autumn
Oh, thank you. And I kind of have a two-parter question to finish out for me. The first one is, it seems like you're very strong in expanding restorative justice, and I'm hearing dismantling the school to prison pipeline, especially in New York City schools. So then what are there any other initiatives that you are taking or you are championing to continue to dismantle it?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
Absolutely. So first, I will start with New York City Reads and Solves, and I know that those are academic initiatives, and people wouldn't necessarily think that that's a way to dismantle the pipeline to prison, but it is because when we take a look at students, at adults who are incarcerated, and we look at their reading and math proficiency levels, we know that They are sorely below and so people act out when they are not given this foundation, and so one of the things that we've committed to is making sure that regardless of the zip code you're in, regardless of your family income, that you have access to an excellent instruction that's step one. Step two is when we launched New York City Public Schools cares, and I'm super proud of this work because, again, that's engaging families that's doing the student led anti bullying and anti vaping campaign. It's also doubling down on trauma informed care and mentoring, which we're going to be making announcements on in the coming weeks, but that holistic approach to educating children and letting them know, yes, we have high expectations for your academic performance, but we also recognize that when your basic needs are met, when you don't feel safe, that it's going to be very hard for you to be successful. So if we educate you holistically and make sure you feel supported, we know great things are going to happen for you.
Autumn
Alrighty. Thank you so much. I'm gonna pass it back to Roberto.
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
Great.
Roberto
Thank you. So the next thing that we want to talk about is kind of the high school admissions process. So we're gonna start with a yes or no question. Do you think that the high school admissions process today is equitable?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
No.
Roberto
All right, and could you kind of expand on that? Why do you say no?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
I think that we have done a lot to improve it, but we are not where we need to be. And so if I'm forced to give a yes or no answer, right, then I think there's always room for improvement. We know that more than ever, students are getting their first choice. We've expanded school offerings by opening a number of new schools. We are opening seven alone this year, the Northwell school, Bronx team center, are two examples that really stand out for me when I think about equity, because we are making sure that these high quality programs are in neighborhoods that typically don't have this kind of access, right? So I think we do a phenomenal job there, and I'm really proud of this administration for that. But what I will say, and again, SHSAT is the law, right? When thinking about the number of students who get into those schools, I don't look at just the test. I look at how many of those students have an opportunity early on to earn the grades and get access to the kinds of content and skill development that's going to make them successful in those schools, right? And so it's not just about a test and how many students are doing well on the test from different backgrounds, it's how are we preparing students and giving them a sound education as early as kids? Kindergarten and even before, so they can compete in these programs successfully.
Roberto
Yeah, 100% like having that kind of early education. So kind of expanding a little bit more on the SHSAT specifically. You mentioned that your daughter is in middle school, so it's kind of around that time. Are you encouraging her to take the test? Why or why not?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
I am not encouraging my daughter to take the test. I think we have amazing neighborhood schools. She enjoys them. She picked her own middle school. I was really proud of her. I had an idea of the middle school that I wanted her to go to, and she said, Absolutely not. And she says, You can't pick favorites because you're the chancellor. And I said, that's true. So she went and she did her own research, and she came back and she said, Mom, this is the school I want to go to. And she put it as her top choice. Luckily, she got in, and so I want her to make the decision that suits her. If she wants to apply to a Bronx Science or American Studies, I will do everything in my power to support her on that journey. But am I encouraging her? No, because, as I opened with my advice to students, I don't think a test defines you. I think you can do wonderfully in any school that is a welcoming and supportive environment for you. And don't get me wrong, I think our specialized schools are amazing, but it's not something where I'm saying my daughter must attend one of these schools. She's gonna go where she feels best.
Roberto
All right. And last kind of question on this topic, again, you mentioned, like, really preparing children early to have the resources necessary. So if they want to, they can take this test and be, like, adequately prepared. What are you doing as chancellor to make sure that that early education, as you mentioned, like starting in kindergarten, starting in preschool, is accessible to everyone?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
So I am in the weeds when it comes to New York City Reads and Solves, and when I do school visits, there are many times that I kick the cameras out of the classroom and I just want to be there. Yeah, my photographer is nodding because he knows it's true. And I have really detailed conversations with teachers, principals and superintendents about the kinds of instruction that students are receiving. That is super important to me. I do. I am not a politician, I am a teacher, and so I take that job very seriously. The second thing that I do is pay attention to the kinds of interventions when a student is struggling, and that's important, because if we're all in the same classroom, getting the same instruction, but some of us need extra help. Who's to say that that extra help is high quality, and it's actually going to move the needle? If we don't start paying attention to what happens in those intervention spaces, you might not be getting what you need if someone does need to intervene. So I'm making sure that the intervention interventions are just as high quality as that tier one initial instruction everyone gets in the classroom.
Roberto
All right. Thanks so much. Moving on to our next topic. We want to talk a bit about student mental health in the wake of the pandemic, and even though it's been kind of the recovery from the pandemic, there's a lot of concerns about student mental health. What steps are being taken this year to make sure that there is mental health support and then that it's equitable, equitably distributed across public schools, again, like you said earlier, regardless of zip code, regardless of income?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
So first, I always have to thank our City Council. Because of their generosity, we were able to ensure that every single school has access to a social worker, a mental health worker, somebody who can support students and that work wouldn't have been possible without their support. I also want to always celebrate our Chief Mark Rampersant, who oversees safety and youth prevention, because his team has been matching school communities with social workers fresh out of university, and making sure that they understand the communities they're serving in so ethnically, linguistically, culturally? How are we making the right matches for mental health too? Because we know that those are important parts of our identity, and they definitely play a role in the kind of support we receive, right? So there's that piece. The other thing is, when our principals have their budget meetings, I have charged the superintendents to make sure that someone from their team is sitting on those meetings. Why? Because I want to make sure that school budgets are really allocating for school counselors and social workers. It's very important to me that schools have access. When I was a principal, I had to share a social worker with one of the schools that had more money than I did, which was not a fun thing, because if I had a student in crisis, I wasn't guaranteed that that social worker was going to be available. And I don't want any school in that situation.
Roberto
All right, and kind of internally, how is the DOE going to measure student mental health, wellness, and, like, the efficacy of any changes that you make? Like, what metrics are we looking at?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
Yeah, that's a really great question. And I think it depends on the school. That's why your Consolidated Plan and those CEPS, the Comprehensive Educational Plan, they're so important, they're often treated as compliance documents, and a lot of people have, like, cut and paste them in the from the past, and then you see years that aren't the current year we're sitting in. So I have made it known that that's not okay under my leadership, your school leadership team always has to have a student representative, and we want to make sure that that student representative is really empowered to have a say in the design of those school goals, because those school goals, if mental health is a real priority, then one of at least one of those goals should be around mental health, and one of those goals should be around safety. And so the metrics are going to look a little different school by school, but making sure that those goals are crafted and that they were designed with student input.
Roberto
All right, I'm going to pass it to Aponi to talk a little bit more about academic rigor.
Aponi
Absolutely. When you talked about even the student representative, it made me call back to a question that we had wanted to ask, How do you like in your policy, making, in your work, incorporate student voice?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
So I love holding focus groups with students, and when I visit schools having direct conversation with students, I don't like when things are vetted. So, for example, I don't want principals to bring me just the two people who have the highest average and the student council president. That's great. I'm very proud of them, but I want to talk to the student I'm seeing walking in the hallway. I want to talk to the student who maybe raised their hands and complained about something like I want real. I want to know what's going on on the ground. So I talk to students all the time. The other thing is that when we have focus groups, I have a policy team, and they are often with me, and they take low inference notes, and they codify everything so that way we can identify themes and trends and figure out like, what in our policy work needs to shift? What do we need to advocate for? What do we need to put more resources into? So student and parent voice are very, very important to me, and it's important that we create the structures to sample the different groups across the city, but also those organic moments. And just being in a school and saying, Hey, I saw you. I saw you, do a whip around the hallway three times. What's going on? Why aren't you in class? What's what's keeping you from going to class? And you'd be surprised, the young person will tell you, I'm sorry miss you know, my bad, but it's boring in there. It's like, well, what makes it boring? And it's not because we want to punish a teacher, but we want to help. So if this is how a young person is feeling, we need to know the truth so we can get to the bottom of how we can be more helpful,
Aponi
Absolutely. And when you have those students that are kind of trying to maybe figure that out for themselves, like, why are they acting this way? I think in my school, sometimes I have doubts around like, do I feel prepared by the classes? And sometimes to see if you have friends in other schools, it can be like you kind of piecing together. Okay, what are you learning? What am I learning? What do I feel like I might be lacking? What is your advice to students on how they can kind of gauge their own quality control in their school, like, how can students know if they are being adequately prepared by their school?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
Students need to ask themselves if they are being challenged in class, and they need to know what challenge means. I don't mean that you're getting 20 pages of homework, but you it's not, it's not necessarily helping you build a skill. Are you being prompted to think for yourself, to ask questions, to engage with adults in a way that is productive and not just being fed information and then you regurgitated on a test? And congratulations, you got an A like, Are you being taught to think, if you are not being challenged, you're just getting a bunch of work, right? Like, I think that's an important distinction. In the past, I've worked with many schools where the kids are saying, I have three hours of homework, and I look at the quality of homework, and it's trash, right? Like it's not, it's not anything that's thought provoking. It's not helping develop any skill and being completely honest with you. And so I'd rather a student have 30 minutes of homework, but It's project based, and it's encouraging them to think and go out in their community and collect data and identify a problem, and how would you put together an action plan to address it, and which legislators do you need to talk to, and which school officials do you need to talk to to make change? That's real challenge. That's real rigor. If we aren't teaching our kids to do that, then school is just kind of this compliance thing that you have to do until you're 18 years old. Which, why? Why would we do that to children? We're not trying to produce people who are just receiving information. We need them to be producers and thinkers.
Aponi
Yeah, and especially, that comes with more like, what you're describing is almost like the overlooked soft skills of like, critical thinking.
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
Absolutely.
Aponi
when it comes to classes like math or science, when you're kind of looking at like, okay, what are the harder skills or subjects that I feel like my school might be missing? Are there any websites or even criteria that the school has that a student can be like, Okay, this is how I judge which subjects I should be learning?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
So you know, I am really excited for you to see what we're launching in the upcoming school year, because we're gonna give you a little preview that I haven't given the press. Cover your ears, Alex. We really are doing this return to intellectual curiosity, and we're outlining what a classroom should look like and what the teacher should be doing, what the students should be doing, and what the family should be doing and experiencing. So if you are a student in a classroom that's really fostering intellectual curiosity, then what does that look like and feel like for you? And this is how we build accountability, shared accountability, right for the kids and for the adults. So if you're sitting in a classroom and you're like, none of these things are happening. This is not a challenging classroom. I deserve better now, in your school leadership team, your student council, your conversations with your teachers, with your principals, you are able to advocate for yourself, but it's really hard to advocate for yourself when you don't have a model for what it should look like. So we're putting out resources and information on like what this should look like in an ideal setting.
Aponi
That's excellent. Thank you so much.
Autumn
So I was listening to you talk about the SHSAT and the rigor. It sounds like you're very for project based learning, versus having Regents and having these punitive kinds of tests.
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
So I think that there was a time when people were kind of doing whatever they wanted. And I say this because when I started teaching, there was something called tracks, and people would say, teachers would say, well, this student didn't really do well in my class, so they're not on track to be in an honors class, right? But then what would happen is that, since we lowered the expectations for students, they got a very different school experience than their peers, who's the exact same age and might have just tested better than they did. And so for me, it's really those building blocks that we're doing with reads and solves to make sure that students have those foundational skills and that we see them for more than just a test. But I don't think that saying the Regents exam, or any exam, isn't good for our kids at all, because it does give us expectations for instruction. So we can't say that, well, you're not doing well, so you're going to be in a different class. Everyone is expected to meet these standards, and the regents exams have been helpful in letting people and letting kids know if they're meeting those standards, right? That being said, that's one test, and I'm super happy that the state is moving in a new direction where regents exams are just one way to graduate. There are so many other things that are going to be looked at as a profile of a graduate that will give you an opportunity to graduate from school. So I think exams have a place. They set the standard, they give us the expectation. So everybody knows that. You know, these standards are not just for one group of student over another, but there are other things that come into play. As I mentioned in the beginning, a test doesn't define you. So how do we look at the other ways that that speak to a student's preparation for graduation?
Autumn
So you're saying the state is soon going to come up with a way with you, to find other ways to graduate besides the Regents?
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
So the state already did this. They did they pulled together a group called the Blue Ribbon Commission, and they came out with a proposal for multiple tracks for graduation, and we're learning more about that when what it looks like from the state, but what it essentially means, in summary, is that you don't have to just graduate based on regents exams. There are going to be other ways that you can graduate, and that's exciting for students, right? And yes to be very direct, I am a big fan of project based learning. I think that it's interdisciplinary. I think that it's real world. I don't sit in a meeting and say I am just going to focus on data and then go into another meeting. And say, Now I'm going to focus on the politics of this. I have to be in a meeting with everybody who has a role in it so we can figure out how to solve the problem, right? And project based learning is really about identifying an issue and coming up with a collaborative plan to address it. And that's what education should be, because that's what you're going to do in the real world.
Chancellor Aviles-Ramos
These are incredibly complex issues and incredibly challenging times, and when I sit with such thoughtful student journalists, I have a lot of hope for the future. And so I want to thank you for giving me a great experience and asking me such thought provoking questions. And I look forward to meeting with you guys again, so you should come back like at the end of the semester and tell me how I did. Be like, You didn't do that! I'm kidding. It was great meeting you.